Girls who look like Boys who look like Girls

(The Gender Interview)

by David Huberman

This interview was conducted with a member of a group of middle-aged men, all of whom visit Thailand quite often.  Usually traveling through Bangkok and Pattaya, they are there to meet or have relationships with genetic women (baby-makers, breeders) who resemble katoeys (Thai transsexuals).  The interview took place on May 3^rd and May 6^th of 2012 at my hotel room at the Ice Inn in Pattaya.

DH (Interviewer):  You’re from Manchester, England, are you not? Is your whole gathering from Manchester, or from all over Great Britain?

Troy (Subject):  Yes, we’re from all over Great Britain.  We keep in contact with each other through the Internet, but my core group I met in local pubs.

DH:  How many are in your group?

Troy:  Maybe about six or seven of us hardcore, and a few more that seem interested.

DH:  So let me get this straight (no pun intended):  you and your friends, who were tranny fiends, go to Pattaya, Thailand to find real women who resemble lady boys?

Troy:  Well, it’s not as cut-and-dried as you make it out to be; there are variations within the group.  But the goal is to have a relationship with a Thai woman who resembles a katoey.

DH:  This is very confusing.  Why not just pick up lady boys?

Troy:  Of course, in the past, we have.  But in my case, I wanted to have a family, and I wanted the kids to originate from my genes.  So when I started to date breeders, they always somehow resembled transsexual women.

DH:  Wow!  You actually used the term “breeders” for real women.  Does your girlfriend feel inadequate when you use the word “breeder” for a biological woman?  It’s obvious that you miss the company of lady boys.

Troy:  I don’t treat my wife as a second-class citizen.  I enjoy her company and her sexuality immensely.  And yes I do miss the lifestyle, sort of.  It’s hard to explain.  The feeling of being naughty is the best I can describe it.  Unlike some of my mates, I was never really into chicks with dicks.  I always like my katoeys to resemble real women – actually, to be better looking than biological women.  Mate, you won’t catch me using the term “breeder” again in this interview.  Where was I?  Oh yeah.  I like my Trans women to be post-op.

DH:  Some of the transsexuals have cheap operations; they don’t look right.  In fact, some of these gender-benders look like they’ve been castrated.  Ever been with anybody like that?

Troy:  Oh!  You’re a hard chap to deal with, I see.  Well now, in Thailand and Brazil, and maybe some other countries, the doctors – I mean surgeons – do a real good job in constructing real-looking female organs.

DH:  How long have you participated in the transsexual scene?

Troy:  Years ago, in London, there was “The Way Out Club.”  Before that, me and my mates would bounce around London; in between pickling up real birds, we’d grab a trannie who passed as a real girl.  I’d say about twenty-five to thirty years in the scene.

DH:  Did you ever consider yourself gay or bisexual?

Troy:  I knew you were going to ask me that question, mate.  I always considered myself straight with kinky tendencies.  Wankers were never my thing, whether sucking one or up the arse.

DH:  You mean you never sucked a cock?  Do you eat pussy?

Troy:  Wow!  This is very personal.  Yes, I’ve gone down on real women.

DH:  So, you have eaten pussy, but never sucked cock.  Am I right?  You’re kind of selfish with your transsexual partners.  How about:  have you ever eaten transsexual pussy, which some people consider castrated cock?

Troy:  Come on, mate!  Don’t be so rough on me! To answer your question, no – I’ve never gone down on a transsexual.  Let me get down to the brass tacks:  I’m an arse man.  I love buggering a big fucking ass.  As you may not realize, the Thai Katoeys have the best asses in the world.  Genetic women don’t stand a chance.

DH:  Even your wife?  But moving on:  do you eat ass?

Troy:  Where are you getting these questions from, out of a hat, or out of your stinking backside!  I mean, man – these questions of yours have nothing to do with the subject.

DH:  I will repeat the question:  have you ever stuck your tongue down somebody’s asshole?

Troy:  I’m not going to answer that question.  I have to end this fucking interrogation.  You’re not even asking the right questions. You’re fucking “out there.”

DH:  Oh, come on.  Stop being a dick!

Troy slams the door as he leaves my room.  A few days later (May 6), after a lot of begging, cursing, and all kinds of false promises, Troy returns to finish the interview.

DH:  Sorry about the other day – let’s continue the interview.  The question is:  have you ever stuck your tongue down someone’s dark side of the moon?

Troy:  You don’t give up, do you?  Yes, I have. The first time was with a South American woman that I met traveling in Wales, and before you asked me if I spooned a transsexual – yes, I have.

DH:  Many times?

Troy:  Yes, yes many times. Can we change the subject now?

DH:  Sure.  Getting back to the theme of transsexual surgically constructed vagina:  have you any stories?

Troy:  Before I met my wife, I’d been with a few lady boys that had had the operation; this one in particular, I think it was in Pattaya, well, I got her back to my room.  It was really bad; she would have been better off keeping her wanker.  Her “cunt”, if you can call it that.  What a mess, just a castration job.  I couldn’t get it up, mate, and came close to throwing up.  I’d rather bugger a chick with a dick than a bad post-op.  That’s an American term – “chick with a dick”. Right?

DH:  Yeah, that saying originated from a famous obscene New York City Monthly newspaper called Screw.  It was great, all the smut you could want.  Plenty of prostitute ads, and people were paid to be johns and rate them.  Screw was popular for many years, but then the internet came along.  Hey, here’s another New York term: “Spaldeen cunt”.  I think it originated from the Bronx in New York, probably based on the Spaldeen stickball that was pink-looking.  You can imagine what it implied.

Troy:  I’ve never heard that term before.  You know your subject matter, I see – done a lot of research.  Maybe I should be interviewing you.

DH:  That’s not how it works.  Any more war stories?

Troy:  Sometimes gender-bender dating can get to you.  It can mess with your head, especially when you pick up a drop-dead gorgeous woman, and when she takes her clothes off she has a bigger wanker than you do.  But after a while you kind of get over the shock of it and you bugger the bitch.  You kind of get used to it – prefer it, in a way, as long as the cunt knows her place.  You don’t want her to take charge; otherwise you might be facing a…difficult situation.  Well, then again, there are some chaps that want a lady boy to be in charge.

DH:  Sometimes I detect anger, especially when you’re describing having sex with them.  What’s that about?

Troy:  Well, I’m a top. I’m a dominant male.  I don’t hurt ‘em too much, but some of them like a little slapping around.  It’s all consensual, though.  Don’t portray me as a serial killer type, because I’m not.

DH:  Have any wild photos of your exploits?

Troy:  I took photos of the katoey with the bad operation. I figured I’d get my money’s worth taking the photos, since I couldn’t get it up.  But the photos were too disgusting, so I burned them.

DH:  I never asked you, how old are you?  And is everyone in your group like you, straight with kinky tendencies?

Troy:  I’m fifty-eight, and to answer your other question, the group varies quite a lot.  Some of my mates are like me; they’re tops who like to bugger a good ass now and then, while others like different activities.  But the main thing is; a good bunch of us are finding real women who want to resemble beautiful katoeys.

DH:  Maybe I should be interviewing your wife.  You know, in one of the James Bond movies, the Roger Moore period (mid-1970s), a beautiful transsexual somehow got past the casting department and got a bit part in the film.  You can actually see her in the movie stills, with all the actresses taking a group portrait with Roger.

Troy:  Well, mate, you heard the story of the top Las Vegas showgirl.  For years, she was the queen of the strip; everybody wanted to sleep with her.  Finally, she married a high roller, but he was one of these suspicious chaps – thought she might be fooling around on him.  He had her investigated, and that’s when it was discovered that she was a transsexual.  There are some futurist writers in England that say the sex symbols, the future Marilyn Monroes, the models that are featured in those special issues of Sports Illustrated, are all going to be transsexuals.

DH:  That’s already happening.  Some of the top print models in France are transsexuals.  They’re all over the fashion magazines.  There’s a writer in the USA that did some research on Mae West, and says she was a man.  But once again, we’re moving away from the main subject matter.

Troy:  Which is?

DH:  The biological women who want to resemble katoeys.  Are they so desperate to get hooked up that they get surgery to please you guys?  Or is this some kind of new cultural phenomenon, like when hip-hop invaded Asia, and a lot of young oriental women all of a sudden started walking around with braids in their hair?  What I’m trying to find out is, is this some kind of new fashion craze?

Troy:  I guess you can compare it to the glam-rock era of the Seventies that was going on in London and New York.  Around 1976, you could get a cheap fare from London to New York for about $85.  Good old Freddy Laker was running the cheap fares back then, and like a good bloke, I left right from the airport.  I said to the taxi, “Take me to Max’s Kansas City”.  The freaking New York cab cost me more than the airline ticket.  So I get there, and the first thing I see out front of Max’s is a bunch of freaks.  Young rock gods trying to look like Marc Bolan and Jobriath, who in turn looked like women.  The birds were no different; they were trying to look like freaking Ziggy Stardust, David Bowie.  Girls trying to look like boys who look like girls.

DH:  That’s the name of a new rock band, I believe, but maybe I’ll use it for the title of this interview.  Once again, you still haven’t directly answered the question.  Are the stylish young women of Thailand trying to model themselves on the katoeys?

Troy:  You know, it’s hard to say, but I think on a subconscious level they are.  There’s competition between them for money, style, clothes and men, but at the same time, some of the women look up to the beautiful katoeys and vice versa. There’s an interchange of ideas when they’re not at each other’s throats.

DH:  So, are the katoeys accepted by Thai society?

Troy:  The Thai transsexuals have a long, ancient history, and there’s much folklore about them, including being called “the third sex”.  From what I observed, there’s some acceptance, but the katoey is a confusing subject for the average Thai person.  In western Judeo-Christian religion, the transsexuals are not only considered sinful; they are the sin.  The katoeys, on the other hand, are accepted by their own religion, which is Buddhism.

DH:  Since you got married and have a family, you don’t run around Thailand, buggering a good ass now and then?

Troy:  I don’t play around.  My lady is in top form.  We both decided; we only wanted two kids.  The wife is an exercise junkie, so she’s in good shape, even looks better now than when I met her.  Had some surgery on her buttocks, sculpted just right.  Perky big breasts, high cheekbones, she looks like the perfect katoey.  The wife told me she always wanted to look like a lady boy, because in Thailand there’s an old saying, “If the woman looks perfect, I mean absolutely beautiful, then she’s a katoey.”

DH:  Just to change the subject for a minute, there were rumors that the comedian and film star Eddie Murphy, and that famous writer – his name escapes me right now, but he wrote the book, “Being There” – were labeled as tranny-chasers.  Yet they both had beautiful wives.  Is there a connection?

Troy:  You left out that soul singer, Teddy Pendergrass, who passed away a few years ago.  That cat was driving his car while getting smoked by some hot looking tranny.  Then boom, he crashed; nothing much happened to the transsexual, but Teddy ended up paralyzed.  To answer your question, chaps just want to fornicate with beautiful women.  Their wives become eye candy, symbols of their wealth and celebrity.  But the deep shit, the carnal urge, the fantasies:  that’s where the transsexuals come in.  Nothing better than getting smoked by some hot, outrageous lady boy.

DH:  Last question:  Is there a sexual revolution going on in Thailand right now?

Troy:  Well, Thailand has had so many political coups and other troubles, but I never thought of it that way.  Why not?  I mean, the government schools have three bathrooms:  a ladies’ room, a boys’ room, and a katoeys’ room.  So why not have a sexual revolution over there?  A gender-bender revolution.  I’m all for it.

David Huberman has had work in Long Shot, Icon, Make Room for Dada, Pink Pages, Rant, Best of Panic, Prometheus, and Public Illumination Magazine. He acted in the movie “Trail of Blood.” He currently performs at Big Mike Logan’s “Manic Mondays” at New York City’s Yippie! Cafe.